Curse

wuzzman · Dec 12, 2007, 08:31 PM // 20:31

there is no discussion! Eventually the gvg builds will be 4 monks and 3 warriors and 1 splinter!

Dominator1370 · Dec 12, 2007, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

there is no discussion! Eventually the gvg builds will be 4 monks and 3 warriors and 1 splinter!

You are, of course, assuming that the Melandru Derv is getting nerfed at some point?

Ensign · Dec 12, 2007, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

For every (x) damage sustained by any creature within earshot, return (y*SR) energy.

I don't think making Soul Reaping an effectively unconditional energy regeneration engine is remotely desirable.

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Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Awaken The Blood: Change skill name. Change skill type to Stance. Affects Curses, Death and Blood Magic. Moved to Soul Reaping.

Minion Masters need a big buff?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Dark Bond: Moved to Death Magic.

Why does the most powerful individual skill on a PvP Minion Master need a significant buff?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

General: Increase all damage from skills not stealing health.

Not that I'm opposed to making Touch of Agony and Dark Pact do a bit more damage, but I can't see that changing anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Chilblains: Increase damage, change enchantments lost to 1...2, can now target ally.

I have nothing against continuing to buff Chilblains (though I disagree that those are the numbers that need changing), but I still don't understand at all why you think it being a PBAoE has any real value.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Moved to Soul Reaping.

I don't understand why nerfing unused hexes by putting them in Soul Reaping is desirable. Do you see some sort of Blood / Soul Reaping hex hybrid coming about or something?

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Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Price of Failure: For x seconds, the next time target fails to hit with an attack, that foe suffers y damage. Reduce casting time, reduce recharge, reduce casting cost.

I like this. You'd want to do something similar to Spirit of Failure as well.

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Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Reckless Haste: Not sure. Needs rework.

Yes.

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Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Rigor Mortis: Reduce recharge.

No.

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Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Icy Veins: Moved to Death Magic.

I wouldn't really oppose this, but I don't see it as anything other than a pretty substantial nerf.

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Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Reaper's Mark: Causes +0...1 Energy Regeneration to caster.

What the hell, this just finished going through 3-4 rounds of nerfs until it was somewhat acceptable. It absolutely does *not* need a huge buff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Wail of Doom: Change function to "if target foe is using an attack skill. Lower blackout duration, lower recharge, casting cost: 10e.

I like this, though it is really, really bloody hard to twitch an attack skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

More must be added, rethought. Fixing a class as badly garbled as this won't be easy.

It needs abilities that are good for the game, not a bunch of attribute reshuffling. I liked the suggestions that made the former changes in general but you supersaturated your list with the latter.

Wasteland Squidget · Dec 12, 2007, 11:45 PM // 23:45

That Wail of Doom change actually might make the skill interesting. It's not "One of your warriors doesn't get attack skills and there's nothing you can do about it", which makes it a considerably better than it was. At 10e, it's also a lot easier to justify taking on a necro template.

Of course, the larger problem remains, you don't have many non-elite skills that you want to take outside of a dedicated hex build.

ensoriki · Dec 13, 2007, 03:00 AM // 03:00

How low of a disable nerf are we talking though for Wail of Doom?

Sacrifice 10% Health, and target foe is interrupted. If target foe was using an attack skill, all of that foe's attack skills are disabled for 4...8..12 seconds.
10 energy 1/4 activation 10 recharge?
Is that along the lines of what your suggesting?

Why not just lower the disable a bit, and add a damage clause for if it works.
Something like 13....50..58 shadow damage or so. (Im just putting ideas out there)

Reckless haste
For 3...6 seconds, target foe and all adjacent foes are Hexed with Reckless Haste. While Hexed, they're next 1...5 attacks are 25% faster, but have a 50% chance to miss with attacks. You steal 10..25..39 hp when they miss.

Just putting ideas out there.
I still think
Soul reaping should be
Whenever you use a skill on a foe under 50% health you gain 1 energy for every 3 points in Soul Reaping.
Whenever a non-spirit creature dies you gain 1 energy for every 2 points in soul reaping.

Theres an effect for doing something, so the necromancer is not dependent on deaths.
When deaths happen they still get energy (just not as much as before)

Skye Marin · Dec 13, 2007, 04:26 AM // 04:26

I kinda like the direction those suggestions go towards buffing Soul Reaping as a skill line. Also, the "Price" skills punishing a miss but not causing miss, then buffed.

Blood needs some loving though:

General change: All life stealing does half damage to targets under 50% health, however the caster is healed for the regular amount of life. OR All life stealing (except for vampiric mods) now act as shadow damage and heal.

Barbed Signet: Cause self-bleeding for 15 seconds. Increase damage to 20..60. Decrease recharge to 10.

Blood Bond: Reduce self-degen to -2

Blood Drinker: Skill rework: Sacrifice 10% health. Up to 1..4 allies in Earshot are cured of Bleeding, Poison, Disease, and Deep Wound. You suffer for the remaining durations of these conditions. 10/2/10.

Dark Pact: Reduce recharge to 0

Jaundiced Gaze: Skill rework - Sacrifice 10% health. Strike Target foe and all nearby foes for 18..80 cold damage. If target foe is suffering from Poison or Disease, all allies near the target foe are healed for 50..125. 10/2/10

Oppressive Gaze: Skill rework - Sacrifice 10% health. Strike Target foe and all nearby foes for 18..80 cold damage. For every foe struck suffering from weakness, all allies nearby that foe gain 1..2 energy. 10/2/10

Mark of Subversion: Reduce cost to 5. Reduce recharge to 25.

Signet of Agony: Skill rework - For 5 seconds, 1..3 foes adjacent to target ally take 5..20 damage each second and you take 10 damage each second. 0/2/20

Wallow's Bite, Touch of Agony: Reduce sacrifice to 5%

If your disagree, or would like to know my reasoning, drop a line.

Syntonic · Dec 13, 2007, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

You are, of course, assuming that the Melandru Derv is getting nerfed at some point?

Melandru already got nerfed. No extra health remember? That being said, it doesn't really change the fact that Melandru dervs are still played. At least, not as much...

I'm more interested in why he chose to have 4 monks and only 3 warriors.

Turbobusa · Dec 13, 2007, 10:01 AM // 10:01

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Dark Pact: Reduce recharge to 0

I see that you want to make it in line of flare. Not that it would make it broken, but flare is affected by armor, this is not, the recharge has a reason to be there.

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Oppressive Gaze: Skill rework - Sacrifice 10% health. Strike Target foe and all nearby foes for 18..80 cold damage. For every foe struck suffering from weakness, all allies nearby that foe gain 1..2 energy. 10/2/10

Not really oppressive. I was kind of against that nerf anyway.

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Signet of Agony: Skill rework - For 5 seconds, 1..3 foes adjacent to target ally take 5..20 damage each second and you take 10 damage each second. 0/2/20

I'd prefer it to cause you to bleed

I like some of the other changes you proposed, dont care about some others. the two touches need a buff for sure.

Riotgear · Dec 13, 2007, 12:12 PM // 12:12

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Originally Posted by Ensign

I like this, though it is really, really bloody hard to twitch an attack skill.

I don't know if that's the case once you throw [skill]Faintheartedness[/skill] into the picture.

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Melandru already got nerfed. No extra health remember?

The health bonus got reduced, it's still there, you still can't DW the tree, and Wearying Strike is still stupid.

Moloch Vein · Dec 13, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Ensign... do you know how annoyingly hard it is to multiquote a multiquote post?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
For every (x) damage sustained by any creature within earshot, return (y*SR) energy.

I don't think making Soul Reaping an effectively unconditional energy regeneration engine is remotely desirable.

Does depend on the numbers returned. Yes, it's effectively unconditional. So is, for example, Expertise. It could be tailored differently... for example "for every (x) damage you take or deal" or "for every (x) amount of degeneration" or "for every (x) seconds of your hexes active" etc, tho the latter suggestions would switch it in favor of degenerate hexes and might not be such a swell idea. Basically I'm getting at something that would make the primary useful as primary e-management in PvP. Active or passive, active probably better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
Awaken The Blood: Change skill name. Change skill type to Stance. Affects Curses, Death and Blood Magic. Moved to Soul Reaping.

Minion Masters need a big buff?

Well, a MM would be pretty stupid to include a +50 sac unless they ran Aura. Then again, most non-stupid MMs run Aura. Imagine this with Order of Undeath. But that's a PvE profession and we all agree this isn't what we're discussing.

The change would make the skill consistent and logical. Look at Glyph of Elemental Power. Generally speaking casters do need a damage buff. Not saying it'd go all the way, but...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
Dark Bond: Moved to Death Magic.

Why does the most powerful individual skill on a PvP Minion Master need a significant buff?

It's a logical change and it never made any sense whatsoever for the skill to be in Blood Magic. Furthermore the buff wouldn't be nearly as significant since DB at 3BM still lasts one hell of a long time. It would simply discourage MMs from making "terribad" (yup, stole that word from you) builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
General: Increase all damage from skills not stealing health.

Not that I'm opposed to making Touch of Agony and Dark Pact do a bit more damage, but I can't see that changing anything.

Again, spellcaster damage needs somewhat of a buff. All saccing BM spells are insane to use other than in conjunction with AoTL (and AoTL is insane). You take more damage than you return.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
Chilblains: Increase damage, change enchantments lost to 1...2, can now target ally.

I have nothing against continuing to buff Chilblains (though I disagree that those are the numbers that need changing), but I still don't understand at all why you think it being a PBAoE has any real value.

It does have some value in low level PvP. It would remove some nuisances from the game (like people complaining in HA about arcane-echoing runner SF sins etc etc). There's no reason NOT to make this change.

I don't like the fact that Chilblains is an unlinked spell as it stands, nor do I like the fact that the CT nerf makes it 10x stronger on a mesmer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
Moved to Soul Reaping.

I don't understand why nerfing unused hexes by putting them in Soul Reaping is desirable. Do you see some sort of Blood / Soul Reaping hex hybrid coming about or something

Actually, yes, I do see a potential in strengthening Blood by including useful skills in the Necromancer primary attribute. I agree many of these skills are unused and they should be looked over, preferrably by someone with more experience than me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
Icy Veins: Moved to Death Magic.

I wouldn't really oppose this, but I don't see it as anything other than a pretty substantial nerf.

Yes, it is a nerf. However it's all in line with a "consistent, logical spell line". Icy is a DD damage spell, which is Death. And IV-spike is retarded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
Reaper's Mark: Causes +0...1 Energy Regeneration to caster.

What the hell, this just finished going through 3-4 rounds of nerfs until it was somewhat acceptable. It absolutely does *not* need a huge buff.

It's been nerfed to the point where it's hardly even used. The hex duration could (and should) be shortened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein
Wail of Doom: Change function to "if target foe is using an attack skill. Lower blackout duration, lower recharge, casting cost: 10e.

I like this, though it is really, really bloody hard to twitch an attack skill.

I actually run this skill in RA, mostly because I think it's a fun skill, and that's how I usually do my interrupts - I don't care to look on the animations of the characters, I zap the skill bar on them. It's real easy to do to a sin. More sin-spike hate isn't a bad thing.

wuzzman · Dec 13, 2007, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syntonic

Melandru already got nerfed. No extra health remember? That being said, it doesn't really change the fact that Melandru dervs are still played. At least, not as much...

I'm more interested in why he chose to have 4 monks and only 3 warriors.

for the love of god man you have to have splinter!!!

Ensign · Dec 13, 2007, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Ensign... do you know how annoyingly hard it is to multiquote a multiquote post?

You get better at it with practice. =)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Does depend on the numbers returned. Yes, it's effectively unconditional. So is, for example, Expertise.

Expertise is a disaster of an attribute. Virtually every Ranger skill is grossly overcosted because of how Expertise had to go into the design. Similarly to prevent the inevitable secondary abuse the breadth of its effect had to be narrowed significantly, further limiting the profession. Now you have this mess of a class design where you have to spend a huge chunk of your attributes on a line that does nothing other than make your character work at all; it is virtually always your highest attribute, and you're limited to skills that work at only moderate specs if you want to dual attribute at all.

Unconditional Soul Reaping would have no such restrictions. At any reasonable returns it would simply be encouraging more of the single attribute, passive energy wonders that *were just nerfed out of the game a couple months ago*. They were *not* good for the game.

Soul Reaping is a great attribute for a Necro due to its strong synergy with corpse exploitation. It is outstanding in any environment where there are regular corpses - which covers not just Heroes Ascent and Alliance Battles, where it is outstanding, but GvG at VoD as well. The only thing really broken with Soul Reaping now is Necros piggybacking onto a Minion Master for bottomless energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Well, a MM would be pretty stupid to include a +50 sac unless they ran Aura.

He'd be pretty stupid not to run a skill that makes all of his minions more than 50% better. Between additional armor on your minions and a stronger BotM, you can cast Blood of the Master about 15% less mid-battle for the same effectiveness if you want to - or you could continue to mash it on recharge and make your minions even more durable. It would absolutely be a must run skill on every MM, and you'd simply have to adjust your build to support it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

But that's a PvE profession and we all agree this isn't what we're discussing.

It's not? Then why are you suggesting a change that makes it a clear Minion Master skill while actually nerfing it for, you know, Blood guys?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

It's a logical change and it never made any sense whatsoever for the skill to be in Blood Magic.

It's thematically blood actually; so are Blood of the Master and Verata's Sacrifice. Those ended up in Death because they ended up making the lines more functional than thematic. Again, this is simply buffing a MM skill, which really has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

It does have some value in low level PvP. It would remove some nuisances from the game (like people complaining in HA about arcane-echoing runner SF sins etc etc).

No it wouldn't. It didn't before and it wouldn't after.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

There's no reason NOT to make this change.

Needless complexity is a great reason not to make a change. Any targeted AoE skill could technically be made better by letting you anchor its center on an ally as well as an enemy. However that adds very little as simply targeting the enemy is better in virtually all cases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I don't like the fact that Chilblains is an unlinked spell as it stands, nor do I like the fact that the CT nerf makes it 10x stronger on a mesmer.

It's a bad skill right now. It needs changes to address that, but I don't think anything you proposed would make it viable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Actually, yes, I do see a potential in strengthening Blood by including useful skills in the Necromancer primary attribute.

It wouldn't really strengthen Blood since Blood is trash. If Soul Reaping was a self-contained attribute the real benefit to Blood would be the ability to run Spoil Victor on a dual specced character. That's not exactly something I want to see happen though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

It's been nerfed to the point where it's hardly even used. The hex duration could (and should) be shortened.

It's been replaced by Corrupt Enchantment, which is a good thing as it's a much more interesting and dynamic skill. Reaper's Mark is still stronger and more common in skirmish hexers (particularly arenas and AB). In 8v8 formats, Reaper's Mark is a pretty good test for format health; it's only viable in mindless sticky hex builds, as it provides no short term utility. If it's in use, sticky hex overload is almost certainly too good, hexes are sticking for duration, and something needs to change.

Keithark · Dec 13, 2007, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

With Curses nerfed and everything else sucking, the last refuge of Necromancers in real PvP has become Soul Reaping abuse, which just got smacked with the nerfbat again.

Personally, I think Soul Reaping is just in dire need of an overhaul. The condition is simply too unreliable in PvP for regular use, and the effect is too powerful to be balanced when builds are made to exploit it.

So the question is: What do we do with Soul Reaping?

Revert to the way it was about a year ago..then bingo fixed

ensoriki · Dec 13, 2007, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Expertise is a disaster of an attribute. Virtually every Ranger skill is grossly overcosted because of how Expertise had to go into the design. Similarly to prevent the inevitable secondary abuse the breadth of its effect had to be narrowed significantly, further limiting the profession. Now you have this mess of a class design where you have to spend a huge chunk of your attributes on a line that does nothing other than make your character work at all; it is virtually always your highest attribute, and you're limited to skills that work at only moderate specs if you want to dual attribute at all.
.

*nods head approvingly*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

It's been nerfed to the point where it's hardly even used. The hex duration could (and should) be shortened.

Reapers mark's strength in my opinion is that it functions with Soul Reaping creating an Energy Boom. with 13 Soul reaping you get a total of 26 energy when someone dies, for the fact that you cast this for 5 energy.

Even if you nerf the duration, how far can you nerf that duration? 25? 20 seconds?
with +1 regen you can get +5 regen, 5 energy every 3 seconds, if the entire duration of this skill is met (and they don't die) you gain about 20+ energy from that. Meaning if they die, you win, if they dont you win. Only loss you suffer is hex removal, which is why we have cover hexes.

Moloch Vein · Dec 13, 2007, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Expertise is a disaster of an attribute. Virtually every Ranger skill is grossly overcosted because of how Expertise had to go into the design. Similarly to prevent the inevitable secondary abuse the breadth of its effect had to be narrowed significantly, further limiting the profession. Now you have this mess of a class design where you have to spend a huge chunk of your attributes on a line that does nothing other than make your character work at all; it is virtually always your highest attribute, and you're limited to skills that work at only moderate specs if you want to dual attribute at all.

Sounds a little like Soul Reaping. Touch rangers say hello.

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Soul Reaping is a great attribute for a Necro due to its strong synergy with corpse exploitation. It is outstanding in any environment where there are regular corpses - which covers not just Heroes Ascent and Alliance Battles, where it is outstanding, but GvG at VoD as well.

SR is unmatched in Alliance Battles. No single character is stronger at AB than Necromancers. However, Alliance Battles are a bloody mess, with players of so low quality they die if you sneeze at them.

If SR is so strong in HA and GVG, how come it is virtually never used anymore?

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He'd be pretty stupid not to run a skill that makes all of his minions more than 50% better. [...] It would absolutely be a must run skill on every MM, and you'd simply have to adjust your build to support it.

You're right, I'm wrong, leave it at that.

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Then why are you suggesting a change that makes it a clear Minion Master skill while actually nerfing it for, you know, Blood guys?

It won't nerf it for Blood guys. Blood guys spec into SR. Most Blood builds don't use AtB either because it's simply not worth it or because the sacrifice costs get atrocious.

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It's thematically blood actually; so are Blood of the Master and Verata's Sacrifice. Those ended up in Death because they ended up making the lines more functional than thematic.

I don't follow you at all here. BoTM, Verata's Sacrifice and Dark Bond are "minion" skills. There are zero minion skills in Blood magic. Yes, I know, BoTM means "Blood Of The Master". That's about it.

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Needless complexity is a great reason not to make a change. Any targeted AoE skill could technically be made better by letting you anchor its center on an ally as well as an enemy. However that adds very little as simply targeting the enemy is better in virtually all cases.

Except when you can not target the enemy.

Look, we know Chilblains is a bad skill. If it could be made into a strong enchantment bomb, it would be packed. If it would be packed, and it could be used to trash those things, would that not be good?

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It wouldn't really strengthen Blood since Blood is trash. If Soul Reaping was a self-contained attribute the real benefit to Blood would be the ability to run Spoil Victor on a dual specced character. That's not exactly something I want to see happen though.

There are other interesting spells in the Blood line; Mark of Fury and Dark Fury comes to mind. It's not an unsalvagable attribute.

Quote:

It's been replaced by Corrupt Enchantment, which is a good thing as it's a much more interesting and dynamic skill. Reaper's Mark is still stronger and more common in skirmish hexers (particularly arenas and AB).

We all know that low-brow classes and builds are both effective and popular in low level PvP.

Besides, Reaper's really isn't very strong in AB considering what you can bring in its place. Spiteful Spirit and Spoil Victor are the strongest hexes of all in AB hands down, which sort of says something about the player quality.

Just to throw out a question, what would you want to change in Blood to make it viable?

God Apprentice · Dec 13, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

The real question is:

Why did it take a few nerfs to do what we wanted in the first place. No energy off spirits.

frojack · Dec 14, 2007, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

If SR is so strong in HA and GVG, how come it is virtually never used anymore?

That's not really SR's fault. It has more to do with necromancers yielding more from dual-spec than from extra energy. In truth, SR doesn't need to be that high before the gain starts being satisfactory.

To be honest, it's the poor (or unnecessary) skills more than anything else, that need a look at. I don't think forcing necromancers to use SR 'properly' by moving stuff there really does anything for the situation.
Sure it lets you strengthen certain skills, but its a far less attractive strategy than say, repairing sticky hexes.

Riotgear · Dec 14, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Spiteful Spirit and Spoil Victor are the strongest hexes of all in AB hands down, which sort of says something about the player quality.

No, Reckless Haste and Price of Failure are. Actually Imagined Burden is, but that's another story all together.

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Just to throw out a question, what would you want to change in Blood to make it viable?

Give it something useful to with stolen health.

Blood is a DD spell line, with the same problems that DD lines traditionally have. Blood Bond and more interesting sac skills could make life drain or steal effects provide some interesting gameplay, but in their current format, Blood is basically the last thing you want to be viable: Unprottable unconditional damage from earshot range.

erk · Dec 14, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

The problem I have with the Blood line is a lot of the skills either cost too much or have an easy to interrupt 2sec cast. That's why I tend to stick to Curses or Death skills.

Hexers Vigor being a 2 sec cast sux for something that's easily removable and stops anyway when you cast a non-hex skill. It should be 1 sec cast like Breeze, or make it a non stoppable skill like Troll if you want to keep the crappy cast time. Even then it is only useful to a Necro primary with a fair bit in Soul Reaping.

Ensign · Dec 14, 2007, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Sounds a little like Soul Reaping.

Only in the case of corpse exploitation skills, namely minions which are priced for the double dip into Soul Reaping. Blood and Curses don't have any sort of tax on their costs due to Soul Reaping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

SR is unmatched in Alliance Battles. No single character is stronger at AB than Necromancers.

I disagree, not that Soul Reaping is amazing in AB, but that Necromancers are unmatched. Necromancers are generally weak characters in Alliance Battles due to the pace and scale of the game. The only real exception to this is a Minion Master, which is a decent vacuum cleaner for all the retards in the format, but loses badly to the occasional competent player who shows up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

If SR is so strong in HA and GVG, how come it is virtually never used anymore?

Death Necros are used by a majority of good HA teams; Necros are not used heavily in GvG because their skills are fragile, inflexible, and generally bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

It won't nerf it for Blood guys. Blood guys spec into SR.

They don't spec more into Soul Reaping than they do into Blood. Why would they spec much into Soul Reaping anyway since the two attributes have such terrible synergy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I don't follow you at all here. BoTM, Verata's Sacrifice and Dark Bond are "minion" skills.

Yes they're minion skills, but Death isn't the 'minion' line by theme but a corpse exploitation and condition degen line. They're hit point transfer skills, blood skills, that happen to work on minions. They ended up in Death Magic because it turned into the Minion Master attribute at release, as they abandoned functional attributes in favor of more flavorful ones. I honestly don't know why Dark Bond was left behind; there's all kinds of weird crap like Dark Aura in Death and the like.

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Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Except when you can not target the enemy.

There is no character in the game with Shadow Form or Spell Breaker that I give a shit about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

There are other interesting spells in the Blood line; Mark of Fury and Dark Fury comes to mind. It's not an unsalvagable attribute.

It's unsalvagable as a main attribute. It has far too few abilities and no cohesion. Short of a complete overhaul, it's only real potential is as a minor attribute with a graveyard of crappy DDs...similar to the common role of Inspiration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Besides, Reaper's really isn't very strong in AB considering what you can bring in its place.

Depends on what your goal is in AB. If your goal is to vacuum up the really atrocious teams and really milk their potential for ineptitude, then by all means run Spiteful. If you want to be able to beat good teams as well I wouldn't touch it. If you're trying to win the bad vs bad mirror then by all means run the strongest anti-bad crap you can, but I personally don't concern myself overly with how to beat the bad teams in any environment. Certainly not on the build level. I wouldn't touch a hex Necro in AB these days; anything it can do, a Mesmer does better now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Just to throw out a question, what would you want to change in Blood to make it viable?

There are a couple ways to go about it...one is to make it 'hexes part 2' by shuffling things around a bit...Insidious Parasite and Parabond would pop down to Blood for instance. That's pretty sketch though. I'd rather it was rescaled as a splash line for Curses and Death, ala Inspiration is for Dom and Illusion. It really can't stand as its own line with what we have to work with, it was far too neglected in the design phase to have any potential. Every expansion was just a bunch of crappy blood DDs with more and uglier conditions on them, and a couple skills that really had no business being in blood. That's no way to make a line.